[BD] RE: Tour 2

Tue Aug 1 10:16:06 BST 2006

"Shit happens, deal with it."

Why does Ultimate suffer from this weird habit of being unable to
approach raised issues without the defences up? Why do people think this
means we didn't enjoy the tournament and how it was organised? 

I fear this attitude is a dangerous one and judging from some of the
personal e mails I have had I would say others agree. Debate is a
wonderful thing. Without it nothing progresses and people will always
disagree with each other. Your points mentioned here all make sense. You
are right. B tour should perhaps stay as it is. Perhaps the lottery
effect is worth it if it keeps developing the sport. Excellent points
that I am not particularly aware of as I am coming form a totally biased
and selfish angle. I am arguing for my team so I will of course have an
agenda. Saying that not sure the international team thing is relevant to
development. A separate matter perhaps. 

But then you end it with the last line that says effectively "Shut up
and get on with it". It's this attitude that bewilders me. The whole
sport is based on this immense concept of on field discussion and debate
and in my general experience a decent community that gets on with each
other. Yet question how things are done on a serious level and you get
sneered at for devaluing people's hard work. Weird. 

I haven't tried to say the tour was rubbish anywhere. Just was perplexed
at the international thing. No need to circle the wagons. No need to
fear me. I think I've received enough answers (thanks) which cover my
points and I hope I've raised a point that is at least worth discussing.
It seems it is. I don't need any more explanations as I'm happy I
understand it now. I do think Tour should be a bit more structured but
if this hinders the development angle then leave it as it is. That's
fine. At least the issues are being discussed. For any developing sport
that seems important to me. You may think new people to the sport bring
annoying and weird questions but maybe we just see things differently.
Fresh perspectives and all that. I don't know but change is not always
bad. Discussing it openly definitely isn't.  

I'm going now. I have a really exciting confirmation form to design. 

Thanks. Especially to Nolan. ;)

Berry7. 

Galahs/Huckers. 

________________________________

From: ALASTAIR FINDLAY [mailto:alastair.findlay at btinternet.com] 
Sent: 01 August 2006 09:54
To: Dan Berry; William Parker; britdisc at ranulf.net
Subject: RE: [BD] RE: Tour 2

The attraction of making the tour all or nothing is very attractive, as
is the attraction of limiting the B-Tour to 16 teams but both proposals,
at the moment, are very dangerous for the development of the game.   

The tour at the moment is the only meaningful way for all teams to play
competitive Ultimate.  Hopefully in years to come we will have more and
different opportunities to play Ultimate at the level that suits the
team, but until we have that in place it would be crazy to stop teams
from developing by entering tours. 

The B-Tour is always going to be a bit of a lottery.  Teams can change
so much from one tournament to the next, that any pool could be a night
mare pool, or conversely you could end up in the easiest pool ever.
Shit happens, deal with it.

ALi 

BU 

Dan Berry <DBerry at information-age.com> wrote:

	If a team does enter only one tournament then the
organiser/scheduler is
	on a hiding to nothing. I can see that. Wherever the Wizards got
ranked
	there would have been issues. Some idiot like me would have
complained.
	I'm not saying that it was the only reason we had such a
shocking
	tournament but it was a bit of a factor and it will affect our
whole
	tour/final positions/qualifying for nationals etc etc. As we
have put
	time and effort into getting ready for tour I do think it's a
valid
	point to raise.

	We could have avoided this by just being a whole lot better.
Such is
	life. I do think though that allowing a guest team into Tour
will only
	serve to screw things up for the scheduler and thus also the
teams who
	are using tour as a season long method of ranking how good they
are.
	Sure Wizards didn't cause massive waves but had they stuck it to
Ltd in
	that game, then you can guarantee everyone would be looking at
this more
	closely. Just cause the Huckers are a bunch of useless,
incompetent,
	half wits doesn't make the case less valid. 

	"Even a blind, one armed chimp has a right to representation." -
Abraham
	Lincoln.

	I agree with Will. These problems tend to arise from a team
entering one
	tournament or dropping out late. If you did indeed make it all
or
	nothing, then the schedule would be much easier to set. You get
no one
	coming in and stuffing up the seeding and most of these gripes
would be
	sorted I would think. I have no idea if this is possible but it
makes
	more sense to me than running Brit Open with a tour event. Not
knowing
	the ins and outs of that one, I personally think it was very
lucky that
	more international teams didn't enter because then you'd have
had about
	10-20 morons like me on here. Had a "proper" team been stuffed
by this
	seriously (more so than we were) then I could have just sat back
and
	watched someone else (who knew what they were on about) do all
this for
	me. 

	-----Original Message-----
	From: britdisc-bounces at ranulf.net
[mailto:britdisc-bounces at ranulf.net]
	On Behalf Of William Parker
	Sent: 31 July 2006 18:29
	To: britdisc at ranulf.net
	Subject: [BD] RE: Tour 2

	I think Berry re-highlights that most of the whines and groans
about the
	tour occur because teams enter only one tournament or drop out
at the
	last
	minute.

	Perhaps it is time that the Tour had an enter all-or-none
policy. That's
	what the tour is about isn't it? That's why we've moved to 3
tours - to
	allow space for other tournaments that the one-tournament
wonder-teams
	can
	cope with. And while we're at it, we could make the tour a fixed
number
	of
	teams so the schedule is simple.

	Of course I might just have started the debate of how to get
selected to
	join the tour but it wouldn't be Britdisc without a recurring
debate.

	>From what I hear, I think the answer to any question relating
to "What
	is
	BritOpen X+2" comes from the fact that there is never enough
decent bids
	for the Tour combined with volunteer organisers and uselessly
organised
	frisbee teams. If you want a better tournament series, have a go
at
	hosting a tournament or volunteer to collect rosters, or
something.
	That,
	or start paying for dog foul collectors.

	Will
	Capt Ltd Release
	1 time B Tour finalists, A Tour regulars

	PS While I'm at it, I thought that the amount of rubbish left
behind at
	Eastbourne was a disgrace and I pitied what Nolan had to go
through to
	clear up after you bunch of lazy punks. Bring the food in? Then
take the
	wrapper out. Have some respect for tournament organisers and the
places
	you visit.

	>
	> Message: 5
	> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:14:32 +0100
	> From: "Dan Berry" 
	> Subject: RE: [BD] RE: Tour 2
	> To: "Simon Statham" ,

	> Message-ID:
	>

	> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
	>
	> Thanks for that Simon. I think you do raise some valuable
points for
	us.
	> I think we weren't good enough. I'm not actually denying that.
Hence
	my
	> comments to Schnell who pummeled us on Sunday morning.
	>
	> My point was more about the inclusion of international teams.
I don't
	> understand the rules or why it happens and think it seems a
bit
	> haphazard. It seems the group was stupidly top heavy in my
opinion. We
	> could have sorted all this out by beating Seamus but we didn't
so the
	> criticism you level at us is correct. I accept that. We are
currently
	> discussing this point amongst ourselves.
	>
	> Point is, I still don't get the rules or how this all works.
	>
	> We weren't good enough to get top 8. Not after this weekend's
	> demonstration. But I still think the seedings played a part in
how it
	> all worked out. Had we beaten Seamus they would have come a
long way
	to
	> get top 8 and push for promotion (maybe at a later stage) and
been
	> disappointed. So someone was likely to be put out by the
seeding. Just
	> telling someone "to go away and be better" or some such
doesn't really
	> address the issue. It may be true but it does what frisbee
(IMO) tends
	> to do and sweep a point under the carpet on the grounds that
losers
	> moan.
	>
	> Again I don't really understand the Brit Open thing. I will
apologise
	> again for that. Your comments didn't really clear that up.
Thanks for
	> trying though.
	>
	> If anyone can help me with the Brit Open thing that'd be
grand. Next
	> time I need a motivational speaker I'll contact Simon.
	>
	> I'm new to this sport. I don't know the ins and outs and I
don't
	really
	> care if that's annoying. Can international teams enter any
tour and if
	> so what is different about Brit Open and any other tour event.
I
	> remember other people out there asking these questions before
the
	event
	> about how it would all work and so it appears there's other
half wits
	> out there like me who are confused. God pity us all. I also
think no
	> answer was given but I may be wrong (God help me if I am!).
All I know
	> is that when we were given the schedule a lot of people on my
team
	were
	> quite shocked at a team like that being seeded where they
were. I
	> wasn't. I didn't even know who they were. I am a total frisbee
mong
	me.
	> Luckily I'm not really assed.
	>
	> Off to practise harder on Clapham Common. In the bushes. In a
	raincoat.
	>
	> -----Original Message-----
	> From: britdisc-bounces at ranulf.net
[mailto:britdisc-bounces at ranulf.net]
	> On Behalf Of Simon Statham
	> Sent: 31 July 2006 15:46
	> To: britdisc at ranulf.net
	> Subject: RE: [BD] RE: Tour 2
	>
	> It's not just because you weren't good enough then?
	>
	> You weren't 'stitched up'. If you had been good enough to get
into
	> the top 8 then you would have beaten at least one of these
teams, I
	> didn't see either of them cruise through all the other teams
there. I
	> don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that either of them even
got to
	> the final - so you weren't good enough, get over it.
	>
	> Go back, practice harder, get better and then you'll be
fine...
	>
	> Dan Berry wrote:
	> Can we not have a really really talented bunch of Ultimate
Wizards
	> from
	> Switzerland in our group next time as well please?
	>
	> I'm talking about the B tour.
	>
	> Having worked really hard to prepare for this tour, the Lucky
Huckers
	> got a bit stitched up (again) by finding themselves in a group
with
	> Seamus Murphy (8th seeds) and Wizards (23rd seed). A veritable
group
	of
	> death. Wizards were clearly a bit useful and it soon
transpired that
	> ourselves and Murphy would have to battle it out for 2nd spot
and the
	> chance for a crossover into the top 8.
	>
	> Murphy themselves mentioned after our game that it seemed a
bit unfair
	> that one team would end up missing out because a team clearly
not
	ranked
	> correctly attended as a guest team. They were just slotted in
at 23rd
	> when they were an experienced and capable outfit and so the
seedings
	> were laughable. It meant one team would always get shafted.
Not
	> particularly through a team improving lots since the last tout
but
	just
	> from obvious bad planning.
	>
	> I imagine this is a difficult problem to overcome if a team
only
	enters
	> one tour a year etc but did Wizards attend because this tour
was
	coupled
	> with Brit Open? I'm new to all this so I don't understand how
it works
	> but why invite international teams to a tour event that (I
thought)
	was
	> designed to rank GB (and Ireland) teams before nationals.
Correct me
	if
	> I'm wrong. I don't really know. Why not then invite
international
	teams
	> to a separate event to play the best of British (and Irish!)
after?
	Why
	> invite them in the middle?
	>
	> Just seems stupid to me. Wizards were really cool to play
against and
	> it's great to get international teams involved but is this the
right
	> place to do it? You stitch up any team that gets them in their
group.
	> Our weekend was over by Saturday evening really. Ok, so we're
only B
	> tour, who cares etc etc but we still went with aims of working
our way
	> towards A tour. Yeah we enjoyed the party and our games on
Sunday,
	they
	> were great, but when you set yourselves a goal and it gets
taken away
	> from you in this way it kind of takes the motivation out of
everyone.
	So
	> we just got absolutely bulldozered at the party and wondered
who
	picked
	> techno/gabba as party music. ;)
	>
	> Apart from that it was cool. Special mention to Scnell Ja
(sp?) who
	> stuck it to us hard Sunday morning. Fair play.
	>
	> See you all at Cardiff.
	>
	> Berry78.
	>
	> Lucky Huckers.
	>
	> (My views only but the rest of the team can't read so they
will never
	> know if I said something wrong anyway.)
	>

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